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Post by Chuck78 on Dec 15, 2019 18:19:01 GMT
So I finally picked up a PE175 project somewhat locally (4-hour round trip drive time), thanks to a tip from Leith who is halfway across the planet from me! It's not very pretty, very well-used & abused, but with the seller's help with a Bill of Sale, & his tips on a very relaxed small town rural Bureau of Motor Vehicles Title Agency office, I was able to get an official State of Ohio Off-Road Motorcycle Title, which allows me to buy a 3-year registration sticker to allow me up ride it on the 150 miles of Wayne National Forest trails here, as well as Perry State Forest, Richland Furnace State Forest, & more. Wayne - Dorr Run trails are amazing, Perry is great also, far better than most any private land trails nearby. The bike runs & rides technically, but has no shock reservoir, blows all fork oil out, has no front braking & very little rear braking, big dent in front rim, ends of clutch & brake levers busted off, petcock leaks, rear brake pedal folding tip is questionable (not stock?), fender plastic is very chalky & front is cracked, & is missing a lot - no lighting at all, speedometer & cable missing, RM500 airbox rigged up - need proper PE airbox, no kill switch, front chain guard sprocket cover missing, no side covers, kickstand/chain roller bracket cut off of frame & missing, obsolete muffler hanger missing, etc... The good - I FINALLY GOT ONE NEARBY, & IT'S NOW TITLED! I paid a bit too much for it based on condition, but it was easily titleable where the seller lived, so that saves me a huge amount of hassle as this is worth an extra $250 to me so that I can ride it on the vast networks of public trails in the Appalachian southeastern corner of Ohio in the hills... It starts easily even in 35-40 degree Fahrenheit temps. Engine runs fairly okay, but will need new piston rings & the bore examined at minimum. 1st gear it is a bogged down dog, but once hitting 2nd, the crankcase gets cleared out & it takes off decently although will not pull the wheel off the ground thru 1st & 2nd like my buddy's stock 84 175 does. Surprisingly, the chrome on the fork tubes is immaculate from what I have seen so far.
Seller is also offering me a hard anodized fully rebuilt rear shock done by Drew Smith/WER Products - once he gets a vintage Ohlins rebuilt & set up for his pristine '82 PE175. A new Worx Shocks or Race Tech shock for this application will run me at least $800 or $1,100, so if I can find a stock with the inside of the aluminum main cylinder still suitable for rebuild, and get it hard anodized, there's going to be no performance difference if I have it revalved versus the high-end shocks, other than no compression damping adjusting clickers. The stock shocks were actually really nice aside from KYB/Suzuki's huge oversight of using aluminum main cylinders, as they wear out rapidly, & the aluminum shavings jam up the valving shims... It is mandatory if you get one of these Suzuki Full Floater bikes, to tear down the shock and inspect it, and have the inside hard anodized at minimum, as this will wear SIGNIFICANTLY better with the hard anodizing p coating protecting the aluminum friction surfaces. Attachments:
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Post by drumnagorrach on Dec 15, 2019 18:41:30 GMT
I have just re built the top end of my 82 175 z It ran when I got it but was a bit disappointing . When I took the cylinder off , I found the reed stops Squashed down to less than 5 mm , I shouldn’t be surprised because I have found quite a few bits wrongly assembled and a large engine mounting bolt at the rear of the Gearbox missing . The bore wasn’t worn much but looked like it had been corroded with standing but had simply been started When the piston rings cleared the rust , the bore wasn’t round , evident by carbon deposits on the bore and the sides of the piston . All back together now after a rebore and new Wossner piston Rides really nice now, loads of mid range power and after 20 odd miles to run it in I opened it up a tad this afternoon the improvement from before the top end re build is very noticeable your probably going to find lots to replace but getting the Piston to bore clearance spot on seems to have been worth the effort , I found a local engine machine shop who does a lot of work on racing karts and he was happy to hone the cylinder Out to exactly 2 thou clearance to the piston , seems to have worked
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Post by Chuck78 on Dec 15, 2019 18:55:30 GMT
That's great to find a machinist who cares enough to get it within a thousandth of an inch piston clearance... honestly I was considering not only having the cylinder head cut a little bit to increase the compression ratio slightly, not too much, but also having the cylinder bored out for a stock TS185 Wossner or maybe Wiseco piston, & having the cast iron bore Nikasil-plated to make it last forever. I might even consider a 1mm oversize 185 piston to give it even more grunt, as long as I deem the cylinder walls thick enough. TS185 cylinders have thicker sleeves, but are not compatible despite the 185 and the PE175 having the same crankshaft stroke, and the 185 porting is much more tame.
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Post by Chuck78 on Dec 15, 2019 19:19:22 GMT
As much as I would like to see this thing go together ASAP, I still have a '77 PE250B awaiting my restoration, and I have nearly everything needed to rebuild that bike aside from rear brake shoes and wheel bearings. in front of that, currently in the garage on the motorcycle lift is my wife's 86 Harley, undergoing crash damage repair and major electrical / control / digital speedometer tachometer upgrades. Japanese cartridge forks and brakes to try and stop this overly heavy straight line going highway cruiser. Trying to get that thing finished up in the next few days.
Although I'm still likely to be putting the PE250 rebuild next on my full bike rebuild lists, the PE175 I am actively seeking out all of the missing and worn out bits and pieces to rebuild, as well as upgrade mods for it.
So far, my plans for it are the following: *rebuilt hard anodized shock from Drew Smith/WER *rear suspension pivots rebuild *RaceTech Gold Valves in the forks, new seals (may stay with stock springs for now, I'm only 160lbs and wife will be riding it a lot hopefully), *84 RM or IT465/YZ465 dual leading shoe front brakes + EBC grooved shoes *full engine teardown, - anticipating crank rebuild needed - bore to 64mm or perhaps 64.5-65.0mm, weighing these thoughts on cylinder sleeve thickness in the protrusion below the aluminum jug (have cylinder Nikasil plated to same size once this overbore shows wear) -possibly have some mild porting done if improvements are to be had in the low-mid and midrange - assemble bottom end after crank checkout (& possible rebuild), measure deck height, send head to RK Tek for custom squish band machining and patented combustion chamber re-shape, $200-$300 - Boyesen Reeds - all new gaskets and seals, inspect everything thoroughly.
* Lectron 34mm carb install at some point * FMF Universal/Vintage TurbineCore2 spark arrestor * maybe cut open expansion chamber to remove inner perforated layer and restrictor plate washer, re-weld, send off to have silver ceramic coated. Install pipe protector on exposed chamber portions, try to find a way not to have it rub through the ceramic coating * re-wind lighting coil, install regulator-rectifier, install new reflector lens assembly and LED bulb after consulting my buddy Leith on his findings! * Shinko 546 90/100-21 front tire, eventually a Sedona MX907HP rear tire 110/100-18 and Neutech Tubliss rear system (have Kenda Equilibrium rear trials hybrid tire to burn up for now, + heavy duty inner tube)
Other maintenance: - kickstand/chain roller mounting plate cut off of frame (apparently they bend easily anyway) - re-weld at least a chain roller mount back onto frame, as this seems critical - find proper PE175 82-84 airbox - inspect ignition, do electrical tests, determine if new upgrade should be swapped on for reliability or performance upgrade, or full Vape system installed, or other aftermarket CDI box and ignition coil - swap blue seat cover for black - front rim has substantial dent, find rim or used wheel - buy replacement new or used headlight plastics OEM or Preston Petty, OEM metal headlight guard, LED upgrade and reflector assembly mentioned above . -find a reproduction or used replacement taillight, not terribly concerned with a taillight though, I'm sure my very bright headlight will give those following me an indication of exactly where I am at ahead of them - try to clean up gouged out razor blade refinish job on gas tank (very uneven surface from scraping thick paint layers and oxidation off by previous owners) - trim cracked areas off of edges of front fender, attempt to clean up oxidation layer on plastic, find nice replacement to keep on the shelves for future use - attempt to clean up oxidation layer on rear fender - fit RM125 vented side covers (not best color match though), or just find proper PE side covers - petcock rebuild - it drips from face when turned on. - brake pedal folding tip is very loose and spring weak - find replacement? - rear brake linkage shaft and seal cleaning, regreasing, replace worn parts if needed (swingarm seal is obsolete) - steering stem bearing checkout, replace with tapered rollers if needed - clutch and brake hand levers both have tips broken off, find replacements
- Look into wider aftermarket footpegs??? Or refurbish these. - RM125 '84-'87 alloy kickstart lever seems to need some attention in the pivot/spring loaded ballcheck detent area, may replace with '88 RM125 kick lever and fit this 84-87 onto the PE250 - install Motion Pro brake snake cables on both shifter and brake pedals
Yes that's quite a list, it has been very well used and abused, but it was semi-close to home and titled! And I'll be happy to breathe new life back into a bike that was at one point left for dead as a parts bike until previous owner Brent decided to try and resurrect it. Thanks, Brent! As much as I love good used parts market availability, I love to see these things ripping around on the trails still even more!
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Post by Chuck78 on Dec 15, 2019 19:26:28 GMT
Also looking to upgrade the lighting coil (likely learn to rewind it myself by hand), and put on a regulator rectifier and upgrade to a very bright LED bulb and probably new reflector lens assembly based on Leith's findings. I'll do some electrical tests on the ignition, but am slightly weary of a 36+ year old CDI box failing, so I may at least keep a trail spare in my crate of spares and oils that I keep in the truck when trail riding any of my bikes.
It'll get a Kenda Equilibrium rear trials hybrid tire + heavy duty inner tube for now (new spares I have & am trying to get rid of), & a Shinko 546 front. Once the rear is worn out, I'll likely go with a Neutech Tubliss system & a Sedona MX907HP 110/100-18 (moderately soft between standard & gummy durometers, & AWESOME unique tread lug design, works amazingly, generally a cheap tire manufacturer but they struck gold with this rear, but not the 907 or 887 front!), or possibly Shinko 520 (best long-lasting all around tire I've ran, NEVER get stuck in mud bogs with it, it is a true mud hog, does moderately okay on hardpack but best at low pressure 8-9psi with my TuBliss setup. Or the best tire I've ever ran, but picey and faster wearing, the MotoZ Arena Hybrid Gummy... WOW. if there was ever such a thing as a super tire, this is it... But $105 is steep, & they are always low on stock due to its popularity and limited production.
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Post by Chuck78 on Dec 15, 2019 19:32:30 GMT
I've got two other bike builds ahead of this one at minimum, and a high performance Suzuki GS550/650-740cc engine build, but we are entering the winter season, & I've got a nicely heated basement shop that I'm finishing up now, exterior staircase 5 step entrance/ramp, lathe, mills, & all...
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Post by drumnagorrach on Dec 15, 2019 20:50:29 GMT
I was surprised by the lack of squish band on the head , even a friends Lambretta has one .It would be interesting to see if you can incorporate one if you skim the head down . Yes I struck lucky with the machine shop , only 6 million people in Scotland ,75% of them in the central belt ( Glasgow to Edinburgh )I'm 200 miles north and wondered who I could send the cylinder to when I found out that Elgin precision engine services ( 25 miles away ) sorted kart engines ,result .
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Post by Chuck78 on Dec 15, 2019 20:56:41 GMT
If I pick up a spare head, I think I will send it to RK Tek, 2strokeheads.com is their website iirc. they typically will weld up the combustion chamber, and then machine it back down and put all sorts of fancy fluting in it. Their technology and combustion chamber reshaping has won awards in collegiate competitions for maximum efficiency and output of 2-stroke combustion chamber designs. They are primarily snowmobile people, but also gladly work on dirt bikes. Before&after photos (RK Tek on left, stock designs on right): The only problem being that several years of Suzuki engines used an aluminum alloy which was not weldable, hence I said spare head! If they determine it is not a weldable alloy of aluminum, they can still do some machining to improve the heads, at least give it a good squish band and cut it down to increase compression ratio. I also was considering doing this to my PE250, but with that, at least an RM250 head fits directly, & is 3cc's smaller combustion chamber, therefore it is a slight compression increase over the stock PE as a direct bolt-on. RK Tek cylinder head comments from KTM discussion on ThumperTalk: The RK Tek head will be the better head (vs a stock head milled down for c.r. gains) The ridges do a number of things.
They help with mixing the mixture as well as the small peaks of the ridges give the harmonics (in all engines) a place to escape the engine structure. These harmonics happen to "ring" at a frequency the does "things" (too deep to get into) to the molecules that make up the gas. This physical "change" to the molecules along with the mixing effect are responsible for the power. ------------------------- Go with the Rk Tech head. They have a patent on that head for a reason. It gives the bike power everywhere! The slavens mule will only boost the bottom and some mid range. The rk tech head makes the 300 feel "4 stroke ish" meaning the power becomes more linear, and more of it! ------------------------- I just put an RK Tec on a 300 Beta. More power bottom to top . Linear, Electric. A Dream come true motor.
------------------------- If one really wants to understand the RK head, you need to talk to Kelsey at RK.
I very recently installed the S3 (milled stock head for higher compression) on my bike (2017 250xcw), and honestly didn't notice much difference from stock while riding it around (so, it's coming off asap), which has now led to this unfortunate and expensive experiment...today I ordered the RK head after chatting with Kelsey for over an hour...the guy understands 2 stroke engines probably better than anyone on this continent (he's candid and blunt, which is refreshing vs. the typical BS). The guy's a 2 stroke beast engine snowmobile guru....hmmm, sleds compared to bikes? my guess/gut tells me the guy knows his sh*t. Wish I would've gone this route to begin with.
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Post by Chuck78 on Dec 15, 2019 21:52:53 GMT
www.2strokeheads.com/-Vintage-Cycle-Modifications(Note: the Vintage Cycle Modifications link in their Shop Menu is way down at the bottom, and you don't even see it right away on the mobile version, but on the desktop website version, it is clear to see) "We have been doing some VERY custom Head Mods to various Vintage MX AND STREET Bikes.
Since 2 Stroke technology was literally, in its infancy in the 70's, the engine designs are a true reflection of how much was NOT known about the 2 stroke engine at that time
We have found that the combustion chamber (Head) is one area where HUGE performance gains can be realized on these Dinosaurs!!
In most cases, we have to weld the chamber in with special alloy and then completely re-shape the combustion chamber to a design that allows for a MUCH more efficient combustion process and utilizes our Patented combustion chamber design.
After this mod is finished, ALL of the Pro-Riders have been able to pull 1 gear higher around the entire track! Along with this added gear, they have all realized easier starting and best, serious increase in power throughout the ENTIRE RPM range!! This mod is noting short of AMAZING~
Do not take our word for it.. Search the internet on all the vintage forums and see what the riders are saying about this awesome mod!
We have PROVEN chamber designs for ALL elevations and ALL octane requirements for the following Engines: 1)... 8) Suzuki RM500 9) Suzuki RM250 (Full Floater) 10) Suzuki RM400/465 (NOTE: We cannot weld this cylinder due to it's special alloy)
And the list continues to grow as we get the engines in for testing!
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Post by Chuck78 on Dec 15, 2019 22:29:53 GMT
I just emailed RK Tek asking for information on a particular heads that I would want machined, 77 PE250 (or 78 RM250 head for the PE250), & 80-84 PE175 heads. honestly I'm more concerned about the 175, trying to bump up the power on that bike said it will be more than adequate to match against any modern bikes that my trail riding friends might be piloting...
They list the Full Floater RM250 (1981+, although '81 was air cooled & '82+ was water cooled) and the RM500 (1983-1985, all are water cooled), BUT for the RM400 (1978-1980) & the RM465 Full Floater (1981-1982), all models air cooled, they specify that these models all use a specific special alloy that cannot be welded. I wasn't sure if the special alloy that cannot be welded was based on the year of the bike that dictated the alloy used, or if it was an air-cooled thing versus the later water-cooled engines' alloys, or what.
Heck, maybe it was just something specific to the 400 / 465 air-cooled big bores, as it is widely known that the big bore engines were very heat sensitive and detonation-prone, so perhaps maybe they used a special alloy that cooled better than what I'll call the "standard" alloy in the 175, 250, 125, etc if this theory was true
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Post by Chuck78 on Dec 15, 2019 22:41:08 GMT
As far as this project is concerned, Leith, Chuck, Etc, if anyone has any pointers on the following, please chime in: Will an 80-82 PE250 wheel fit a Full Floater 82-84 PE175 fork? It has the larger 150mm drum, & can also fit the GN250 twin leading shoe brake plate. EDIT - NO! The 6202 wheel bearings spec'd for the PE175 Full Floater and the RM Full Floaters are 15mm i.d., and the older PE's with 36mm forks all run a 12mm front axle
Will an '84 twin leading shoe RM wheel fit a Full Floater 82-84 PE175 fork? EDIT - YES! However the brake plate slotted lug and male lug on the fork leg are oriented a little differently, the RM lever will be lower than horizontal when mounted on the PE fork, but the lever splines can be moved one spline or so to correct this, but too much rotation on the splines and you risk running out of brake cable travel or having the lever hitting the axle. IT465/YZ465 dual leading shoe brake plates run the exact same size shoe (different backing plate design for the Yammy vs Suzi, so different shoe part #'s), and these have a different lever configuration that is very unlikely to snag anything by hanging down, as the end kicks upward, but it is slightly more possible for the brake to apply itself if any brush one rides through is able to get hung up on the front underside of the lever, whereas the RM lever would just snag it and perhaps the cable may get slightly actuated. The '82 RM250/500 dual leading shoe brake is the same, but there is no cable housing stop cast into the plate (it was on the fork in 83, a terrible design with long length of bare cable exposed to snag on woods obstacles and apply the brake accidentally). On these, you would have to fabricate a bolt-on cable housing stop. These are cheaper and more available used due to the non-bolt-on installation, i.e. requiring fabrication/modification.
Also, are there any aftermarket wider footpegs to fit the 82-84 PE175 frame? I'm assuming RM parts if the era would swap, for which there may still likely be aftermarket footpegs available for. The pegs I got for my '77 PE250 are listed for a more recent DR250 model from the mid/late 1980's or early 1990's if I recall correctly. Some foot pegs however have a different mounting angle so will not be positioned quite properly if installed on a different frame with a different mounting angle, so you need to be selective and compare photos very stringently.
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Post by ESR80PE on Dec 16, 2019 7:04:53 GMT
Post close up of folding tip. it might be aftermarket IMS or Malcolm smith weld on tip. I can ID it. Yes suzuki had factory folding tips in 82 though.
Yeah i told Brent to buy that Ohlins for his PE. Steve Marpes is gonna work his magic on it. Should be great to see a 175 Floater with Ohlins.
Yes 1mm over TS piston will go in OK. I have even seen guys run 67 or 68mm pistons from something and get them right out to 200cc. Not sure exactly what. I believe it was a Yamaha piston and i was sure it was a CT175 piston so i bought a CT piston but i am not entirely convinced its that piston now. I do know the bike had a 2 or 3mm plate under the barrel too.
I will report back on headlight inserts soon. I have not forgotten. Just waiting till end of year before buying so i don't have stuff mixed up in xmas mail rush.
I honestly do not believe the statement about 'non weldable alloy suzuki heads'. That's what people say about magnesium but it is infact weldable byt experienced and knowledgable welders with enough experience. I am no expert in TIG welding aluminium but i believe it just comes down to choosing the correct grade filler rod and setting the welder up correct for the job.
Yes for pegs 92 onwards RM/RMX is what most people use. They have 10mm pins and need bushing to 8mm or frame drilling.
But honestly any of these pegs for the PE's are not going to be any good especially if you have large feet. They reduce the gap between peg and levers. Best solution is custom made or modded stock pegs that offset the foot platform backwards to retain the stock gap. PFR (proform) used to make these pegs specially designed for the 1980 and newer RM/PE's. I tried the after market pegs for PE but did not like them for the above mentioned reason. Decided to go with 89 RMX pegs which are not wide/fat but have much sharper teeth, use 8mm pins, use same springs as PE and a direct bolt on requiring no mods other than painting them black.
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Post by Chuck78 on Dec 20, 2019 0:14:58 GMT
I was looking at potentially running a 65mm Wossner TS185 piston, but based on someone's measurement shared with me, the o.d. of a 1980 PE175 cast iron cylinder sleeve protrusion at the bottom of the jug is 68.8mm iirc.
So: 65mm PE175 = 1.9mm cyl walls 189cc 64.5mm = 2.15mm cyl walls 185cc 64.0mm = 2.4mm cyl walls 183cc 62mm stock = 3.4mm cyl walls 172cc
I see the merits to sticking to 64mm/183cc/2.4mm walls or 64.5mm/185cc/2.15mm cyl walls... As was stated to me, if you let the piston get pretty worn to the point where it rocks back and forth in the bore, there is a slight possibility of the rocking and rattling to crack off the bottom protruding portion of the cast iron sleeve, and then it is GAME OVER for that engine. At best, stranded and major rebuild. 64mm would mean bigger bore and 11cc more displacement, but less chance of piston wear/piston slap ever breaking off the bottom of the liner. I'm sure LA Sleeves could install a thicker sleeve, but thats a lot of trouble for 5 or 10cc's. A resleeve job and a 66mm TS185 piston, and then subsequent Nikasil plating in the future once the overbore gets worn, to restore it back to 66.0mm, that would be the ultimate and it would then basically be a PE200 (195cc).
With any larger than a 64mm, head would is likely going to be required I am assuming, as the head surface is not going to be accomodating of such a drastic non-stock increase in bore diameter, and would not match up with the new piston very well.
So 64mm 183cc 2.4mm walls Wossner PE175 piston, 64.5mm 185cc 2.15mm thick walls with Wossner TS185 1st oversize, 65.0mm 189cc, 1.9mm thick walls Wossner TS185 2nd oversize... I'm undecided so far, but it will be one of those sizes. I'll decide more once I pull my PE cylinder and examine it. I may try to pick up a used 84 cylinder and head as spares and test pieces. The 84 porting is slightly revised, and I love the way my buddy's 84 runs, it pulls the wheel up a bit ripping through 1st and 2nd under pretty healthy acceleration.
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Post by Admin on Dec 25, 2019 14:20:01 GMT
As far as this project is concerned, Leith, Chuck, Etc, if anyone has any pointers on the following, please chime in: Will an 80-82 PE250 wheel fit a Full Floater 82-84 PE175 fork? It has the larger 150mm drum, & can also fit the GN250 twin leading shoe brake plate. EDIT - NO! The 6202 wheel bearings spec'd for the PE175 Full Floater and the RM Full Floaters are 15mm i.d., and the older PE's with 36mm forks all run a 12mm front axle Chuck, impossible for me to answer! I don't have a full floater! I have a 77' 250 and a complete set of forks+wheel for an 80-81 250 and if I ever get motivated I will make the swap, the one thing holding me back is then I will probably need to make a new speedo cable ... And I'm not sure I want to do it ;-) Perhaps if the bike goes down for another reason it will get done then but for now I'd just like to ride.
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Post by ESR80PE on Dec 26, 2019 8:05:41 GMT
You can change bearings in the 250 hub to 15mm ID or bush the holes in the 175 sliders from 15mm down to 12mm. Easy done.
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